I have a question about [POLITICS]. Seriously.

"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura) 07/16/2020 at 09:32 • Filed to: None

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What is illiberalism ? Can anyone offer a concise, meaningful definition?

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 09:36

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No, but I can say that in my entire  poli-sci adjacent degree I never heard that term once.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 09:36

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I have never heard this word before but

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/illiberalism

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 09:36

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I’m gonna take a wild guess because this is the first I’ve heard that term. Is it the opposite of liberalism? Liberalism gone wrong?

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 09:39

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Punch everything.

ttyymmnn > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 09:43

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It’s another attempt to make “liberal” a dirty word. 

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 09:46

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Liberalism’s ugly sister?

:::shrugs:::

facw > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 09:49

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I’ve never heard illiberal ism by itself. People talk about illiberal democracy, which is a democracy (with at least a pretense of free and fair elections), but without some of the freedoms that have historically been tied to successful democracy (freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly). Singapore is the traditional example (and a rare one where things function pretty well), but you could also consider Russia, Turkey, Hungary, etc.

Perhaps you’ve seen it applied to the US in regards to “cancel culture”, removing statues, and such, but I don’t think it would fit there. People have a right to express bad opinions, and the government can’t stand in their way, but everyone else has a right to criticize those bad opinions (or good opinions) , not do business with companies that support them, petition and protest against them, even if it has consequences for the speaker.    

Aremmes > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 09:56

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First time seeing that term, but it sounds like what reactionary contrarians would cook up to place themselves as the opposite of the imaginary liberal boogeyman they've spent their lives denigrating.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 10:06

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The old blue team wanted to illiberate the slaves.

Still confused how that old red team morphed into what we see today...

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) 07/16/2020 at 10:07

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Because someone just made it up.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) 07/16/2020 at 10:08

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Ooh, I’m gonna politic this article real good...

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) 07/16/2020 at 10:10

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It’s used quite a lot in commentary about woke.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 07/16/2020 at 10:11

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The word is used disparagingly in the context of commentary about woke.  

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ttyymmnn 07/16/2020 at 10:13

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Often used in the context of commentary about woke.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom 07/16/2020 at 10:14

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Why sister and ugly and not thuggish brother ? Perhaps your descriptor is itself an example of illiberalism.

This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 10:18

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Flammable vs inflammable = Same thing. So same same.

Now Non-illiberal on the other hand...

wafflesnfalafel > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 10:21

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it’s the hip, new “sick” version.  Word up, yo.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > facw 07/16/2020 at 10:23

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Perhaps you’ve seen it applied to the US in regards to “cancel culture...”

Precisely. A nd in the context of critiquing woke.

Check for understanding: (If) progressives are in control and talk about freedom to be [fill in the non-white, non-binary blank] and whatever else, but summarily and extrajudicially terminate, disbar or un friend anyone who states differently, all the while extolling the virtues of their kind and fair and free society?

This is the piece that got me to asking the question.

( I find it ironic that the people who complain most vociferously about “cancel culture” support a POTUS who is currently undertaking an inquisition of government employees to check for loyalty.)

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Aremmes 07/16/2020 at 10:24

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Actually, I don’t think so. I think it’s a descriptor of Liberals who, in practice, aren’t. At least that’s my operating theory at the moment.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/16/2020 at 10:27

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Will you do me a service and expound upon that first sentence?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: 07/16/2020 at 10:31

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I’m not so sure. I think flammable v. inflammable is more like liberal versus conservative. I think illiberal is more about knocking liberals for being hypocrites .

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > wafflesnfalafel 07/16/2020 at 10:33

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Wording up is why I brought my question here, Yo.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 10:35

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In the 1840s and ‘50s, the party was in conflict over extending slavery to the Western territories. Southern Democrats insisted on protecting slavery in all the territories while many Northern Democrats resisted. The party split over the slavery issue in 1860 at its Presidential convention in Charleston, South Carolina. Northern Democrats nominated Stephen Douglas as their candidate, and Southern Democrats adopted a pro-slavery platform and nominated John C. Breckinridge in an election campaign that would be won by Abraham Lincoln and the newly formed Republican Party. After the Civil War, most white Southerners opposed Radical Reconstruction and the Republican Party’s support of black civil and political rights.

The Democratic Party identified itself as the “white man’s party” and demonized the Republican Party as being “Negro dominated,” even though whites were in control. Determined to re-capture the South, Southern Democrats “redeemed” state after state — sometimes peacefully, other times by fraud and violence. By 1877, when Reconstruction was officially over, the Democratic Party controlled every Southern state.

The South remained a one-party region until the Civil Rights movement began in the 1960s. Northern Democrats, most of whom had prejudicial attitudes towards blacks, offered no challenge to the discriminatory policies of the Southern Democrats.

One of the consequences of the Democratic victories in the South was that many Southern Congressmen and Senators were almost automatically re-elected every election. Due to the importance of seniority in the U.S. Congress, Southerners were able to control most of the committees in both houses of Congress and kill any civil rights legislation. Even though Franklin Delano Roosevelt was a Democrat, and a relatively liberal president during the 1930s and ‘40s, he rarely challenged the powerfully entrenched Southern bloc. When the House passed a federal anti-lynching bill several times in the 1930s, Southern senators filibustered it to death.

This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 10:39

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Pretty good analogy. Fl ammable vs inflammable, Liberal vs Conservative.  All of them will burn you.

Turbineguy: Nom de Zoom > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 10:48

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If you like..

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/16/2020 at 11:05

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Thank you for laying all of that out for me. What is your line of work?

I seem to think I’ve been told somewhere along the line that the R and D parties made a switch-a-roo along the way. What you describe here fits well with some of the narrative that the Rs make about the Ds being corrupt and disingenuous. An argument that I frequently hear being made against the Ds, or against Liberals, is that we can look at places like Chicago to see what liberal governance has accomplished, or failed to accomplish. For me, that is something worth exploring.

Something I find interesting in todays me shugas is the battle over statuary. I am appalled when mobs burn and loot retail stores, but mobs pulling down statues resonates with me, particularly when the figures in the statues are associated with so much misery. The Lincoln emancipation statue in DC is being protected and I am hearing real discussion about what to do with it, its origin, and so on, and I think that’s great. But if the mobs didn’t pull down the other statues, they might never come down at all. I think it’s incredibly shallow for the POTUS to argue that people are trying to rewrite history when in fact it’s exactly the opposite. I see public squares as being a sort of museum for the public, and museum collections are curated and change.

So to illiberate the slaves, might one perhaps cite the vagrancy laws and Jim Crow as examples?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: 07/16/2020 at 11:08

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*sighs*

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 11:40

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I didn’t write that - copy/paste from:

https://www.thirteen.org/wnet/jimcrow/stories_org_democratic.html

I work in oil & gas (small private company).

Frederick Douglas’ words on that Lincoln stature are relevant.

Confederate statues should come down, and be put in a civil rights museum, to help explain how oppression continued well past the Emancipation Proclamation.

I was just making a play on words. To liberate is to free.

The Black Codes & Jim Crow attempted to strip free men and women of their freedom (and enslaved many through the prison system).

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 11:46

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It’s a word made up by an idiot who doesn’t want to use the word ‘conservatism ’.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/16/2020 at 11:48

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As for play on words, I definitely got that. I wondered if you were capturing an irony. One of the reasons I ask for clarity from folks here on a regular basis is that I really love language and I am fastidious about its use. As well, our dialog as a nation has gotten appallingly simple and base, not least, I suspect, because of the current POTUS and is 7th grader’s command of the language.

Are you an engineer or other scientific specialty? Fracturing? Just curious. A good friend of mine from church is a computational scientist who specializes in finite element analysis and helps design and test pumps used in fracking.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/16/2020 at 11:48

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And thank you for the reference...

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 07/16/2020 at 11:52

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The word has stuck, apparently. Along that line, I am struck that the people who complain about cancel culture the most vociferously also support a POTUS who is even now conducting an inquisition across the federal government in order to expel employees who his agents find to be insufficiently loyal.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 11:55

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I like words, too.

I’m like 2/3rd of an engineer - LOL. Started in civil eng, got a graphic design degree, got a technical job at an O&G company making maps, went back for half-master’s in GIS. I’m mapping & software support for a small group of geologists & engineers. We’re not currently drilling wells, but when we were, they were horizontal and yes, we’d use hydraulic fracturing in our completions. Doesn’t seem like Uncle Joe is down for a complete ban, but assuming he wins and the Senate flips, it will be interesting to see what changes will come in power generation, etc.

Did you see my Cash for Clunkers for EVs post?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/16/2020 at 12:41

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Interesting ré sumé .

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 13:30

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Been a weird, wild ride, but I ended up in a job that comes naturally easy for me, pays very well, and is generally low stress. And then, I got invited to join in a few years ago when this small company was forming and actually got a small equity stake.

There are no other words for it: I won the job lottery.

Jb boin > This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: 07/16/2020 at 13:49

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While there are multiple definitions of the liberalism, in mine, it’s not a direct synonym of p rogressivism (which is the opposite of conservatism) but rather a form of it.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/16/2020 at 14:16

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Except for forming a company, I’d say the same about my own career. If you love your job, you’ll never have to go to work.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 14:22

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What you have, that I don’t, is the “rewarding” part, the sense of making a difference. I’m thankful that I can provided well for my family, and be charitable on top of that, but I can’t say that I love my job. I try to make up for that in other ways. On the “make an impact front”, I’m on our school board, I coach, and I’m part of a men’s group at church that does regular service projects. On the passion front, I still take on design jobs on the side, on occasion. I just finished up a book cover design for a friend that I’m quite proud of.

As fortunate as I am in my current vocation, I see myself transitioning to something else in 5-10 years (by the time I’m 50), finding a second career that is more about service and/or design, and less about making sure my kids are taken care of and that we’ll have enough savings for the long term.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/16/2020 at 14:30

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The earnings piece: that’s a nice piece. Then again, I’ve been blessed of late with a private coaching practice that brings in money at a decent clip and is also very rewarding. I haven’t been able to enjoy the rewarding part until I’ve gotten older and been through a couple of MAJOR trials in my job. Major. Trials. And at the hands of colleagues, not students nor their families. You mention church. I subscribe to a major American Christian religion and I am 100% vested spiritually and emotionally, but I get much of my growth as a mortal human in my work as an educator. My faith frames my motivations. I’m not there to proselyte to anybody, just to be Christlike to the best of my ability. Both of my major trials were because of my motivations, and it’s also what delivered me in each instance. The Lord has a well developed sense of irony.

At the same time... It was a desire to “up my career” that led me down paths that introduced me to the malefactors that tried so hard to undo me. So, yeah. All of that.

I have to go and do some work. I hope you have a fulfilling day.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/16/2020 at 14:59

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Showing love is what we’re called to do; we can ALL do that in our work.

Be excellent to each other. =)

Thanks - same to you, my friend.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 07/16/2020 at 15:23

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And a classroom is a target-rich environment...

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > facw 07/16/2020 at 22:22

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or illiberal economic theory, as in tariffed trade/non free trade.